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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:05 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:44 am
Posts: 184
Location: Eastern London / West Essex
Drives: Cinquecento sporting
I did a search but no results apart from the one last month about their bump stop / boot.

I need a replacement front left shock absorber.

The Apex one is leaking badly. Not all that many miles on it really.

So I'm thinking of changing to the KYB high pressure gas mono tubes.

These are available for the front anyway, maybe not the rear, although KYB list them, anyone stocking them is another matter. KYB also do twin tubes in the Ultra SR series, just to confuse buyers.

Questions:

What is the ride like?
How do they handle bumps at slow and high speed?
Do they need standard springs? Do they work with harder springs without needing a re-valve?
Do the raise the car height due to the high pressure gas? Meaning I then need even lower springs than the Apex kit in order to bring it down a bit again.
Reliability?

If not KYB then what do you recommend?

Do you know if the Apex springs are harder than standard, or only lower than standard.

Thanks,

Ian

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Cinquecento Sporting 1.1 1998
Renault 5GT Turbo in lots of bits


Last edited by Ian S on Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Location: Teesside
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From what I have seen of KYB, they feel much like the Apex for ride.

The high pressure shouldn't make any appreciable difference to the ride height.

The Apex are both stiffer and shorter than standard.

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.....make it idiot proof and someone will build a better idiot.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Location: Eastern London / West Essex
Drives: Cinquecento sporting
Thanks Pete,

Some high pressure shocks, such as the Bilsteins I have for the Renault, push the rod all the way out with a lot of force.

Mine stay fully out with my 10+ stone on them. Don't budge.

'Standard' shocks don't push the rod out at all and low pressure gas shocks such as the Koni Yellows push the rod out a lot less hard and can be pushed fully in by myself.

Even so the Koni do lift the rear the Renault 5 a bit and when lowering one has to wind the torsion bars around a bit further so it's spring pulls the car down against them. The Bilsteins more so. In fact they push so hard that they are out all the time as I didn't wind the torsion bar around but just bolted them on. If I parked the 5 with one front wheel in a hole or on a bump, one rear wheel would be off the ground and the car rocking on the other rear wheel and diagonal front.

I guess on coil spring front suspension with light weight cars such as the Cinquecento and the 5, Bilstein must make them differently so the weight of the car is enough, perhaps they use less pressure, I don't know.

On this basis then, KYB probably also do so they are suitable for the front of the Cinquecento.

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Cinquecento Sporting 1.1 1998
Renault 5GT Turbo in lots of bits


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Location: Surrey
Drives: Cinquecento x2 & Bravo
as pete says they are OK, nothing outstanding but ok for fast road use

if you want my recommendation get a set of spax adjustables with matching springs

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:37 pm 
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Location: Eastern London / West Essex
Drives: Cinquecento sporting
Thanks Rob. I was concerned that they might be too hard. So they sound OK in that respect.

I had Spax adjustables briefly on the 5GTT 12 years ago but those were very very crap.

They barely moved in either direction. So they were not shock absorbers but transmitted the shock into the car.

Worse was that as they'd effectively removed the suspension the car was punted off the road over bumps and hopped out at the back all the time. I had to drive 20mph slower than with the Renaults original DeCarbons.

Then there was the lack of comfort; spinal compression on a bump at 60mph is not my kind of fun.

Then one leaked after not many and they became no more than metal rods moving up and down in oil.

That put me off Spax and a lot of other people too. They went out of business. The Spax now are maybe just a re-badge from a different manufacturer, eg, maybe they're made in the Gaz factory together with Leda and Avo? Or someone else. I doubt if there are a load of different manufacturers around. Looking at their site, "A SPAX product bought today is completely re-designed compared with one bought years ago." They're making an effort to disassociate from the crap Spax that I had. Looks like their springs are from Germany; from the Apex factory?? I have Apex springs now; 5 year warranty.

Anyway, then I got Bilsteins for the rear which showed just how bad the Spax were. Those Bilstein must have had their non linear valving as they were rock hard with low velocity wheel movement, like cornering (maybe a bit too hard but then they had been made for a tarmac rally car), but yielded with high velocity, such as over bumps at speed so never punted the rear which was able to grip. With those on, I could go quite a bit faster than ever before as they controlled the rear end of the car.

So I was converted to mono tubes shock absorbers and if available, to Bilstein.

I am optimistically hoping these KYB mono tubes would work like those Bilstein, ie, have non-linear valving and keep the car planted but still have working suspension.

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Cinquecento Sporting 1.1 1998
Renault 5GT Turbo in lots of bits


Last edited by Ian S on Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:19 pm 
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Location: Eastern London / West Essex
Drives: Cinquecento sporting
Had a closer look at the Spax website and it all just puts me fully off of wanting to give them any of my money.

It's so very dumbed down. There's no meaningful info there.

The words HIGH (gas pressure) and Mono Tubes are conspicuously absent.

One good thing is the coil overs are stainless and not zinc plated like the Gaz.

Which Spax are the one you're vouching for Rob?
And what lb per inch and open length for the springs?
What is it that you favour about them?

Thanks.

PS: Rob, Pete, are you talking about the KYB Ultra SR or other KYB shocks? I first heard of KYB from a sales ad for the more standard KYB's for a Cinquecento.

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Cinquecento Sporting 1.1 1998
Renault 5GT Turbo in lots of bits


Last edited by Ian S on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Location: Eastern London / West Essex
Drives: Cinquecento sporting
Are the Cinquecento and Sei front and rear shocks the same and interchangeable?

I found Bilstein Bil_008301 B6 sport for the Sei. These are the higher pressure Mono Tubes. £680 inc VAT for the four though.

http://web1.carparts-cat.com/default.as ... 004&12=140



I cross referenced the part numbers for the Cinquecento and Sei at motorsportworld.co.uk with the Apex shocks and they are the same; Seicento = same as Cinquecento.



So I found the Bilstein B6 for the Seicento:
at
http://www.motorsportworld.co.uk

front: 35-043867
rear : 24-027045

£151
£151
£83
£83
£468 inc vat.

WOW. £200 less!!

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Cinquecento Sporting 1.1 1998
Renault 5GT Turbo in lots of bits


Last edited by Ian S on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:34 am 
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Location: Teesside
Drives: Panda 100hp
They will physically fit and are interchangeable between Seicento and Cinquecento. The cars are mechanically the same and weigh the same, so I wouldn't have thought they would be rated differently.

The KYB shocks I have seen are an older type, sorry - not sure which type.

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.....make it idiot proof and someone will build a better idiot.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Location: Surrey
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spax are made in the factory at oxfordshire, i have been there
only a small factory but they are really there

i have also done lots of miles on tracks and roads in my Cinquecento on spax

i also had some bilsteins but they were rubbish and failed quickly

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Location: Eastern London / West Essex
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Rob, were they the B6 yellow and blue Bilsteins or the black lower cost standard replacements?

Someone on here told me he had both those black Bilsteins and the Apex and felt the Apex were a little better, stiffer I think he meant, but little in it.

Thanks for the first hand witness confirmation about the Spax factory :)

What did you find was rubbish about the Bilsteins and is good about the Spax?

Thanks.

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Renault 5GT Turbo in lots of bits


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:28 am 
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Ian S wrote:
Rob, were they the B6 yellow and blue Bilsteins or the black lower cost standard replacements?

Someone on here told me he had both those black Bilsteins and the Apex and felt the Apex were a little better, stiffer I think he meant, but little in it.

Thanks for the first hand witness confirmation about the Spax factory :)

What did you find was rubbish about the Bilsteins and is good about the Spax?

Thanks.


billies were the cheap black ones and failed within months
i had pukka yellow billies on my Alfa and they were great

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:50 am 
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Location: Northwich, Cheshire
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Ive got the black Bilsteins on my Cinquecento and they have been fantastic and they have been given plenty of stick over the last 5 years.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:20 pm 
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lee wrote:
Ive got the black Bilsteins on my Cinquecento and they have been fantastic and they have been given plenty of stick over the last 5 years.


mine blew when i monstered a kerb at castle combe : :twisted:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:58 am 
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RobW wrote:
lee wrote:
Ive got the black Bilsteins on my Cinquecento and they have been fantastic and they have been given plenty of stick over the last 5 years.


mine blew when i monstered a kerb at castle combe : :twisted:


:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Is it any wonder? lol

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